As a Military Man who has spent time in war zones like this, you learn to take both Pro and Negative Propaganda with a pinch of salt.

I am not saying this does not happen in war, it does, every Combat Tour i have served has deserters, but will and are those deserters trusted to allow any kind of behaviour you mentioned, i am sorry but that answer is No. They are locked up as Prisoners of War as the Ukrainian people and Armed Forces would not trust them as just before there capture or desertion, they were actively helping to try and destroy Ukraine.

When i say Pro and Negative Propaganda, you must understand both sides use this to there advantage when they can, including NATO, this is just the way of things in war. I am sure you have heard the phrase "Hearts And Minds" as this tactic has been used since before this century, and will be used again, the propaganda is in the numbers reported from both sides, if you heard a 5 thousand men in the column in front of you are either dead or deserting, this can spread discontent amongst Conscripts, not professional Soldiers like our Armies in the west as these are trained to a much higher level, but to conscripts, this info will be spoken in private and would spread like a Cancer amongst badly trained conscripts who do not really want to be a soldier anyway.

A Deserting or Captured Conscript will say anything they feel will aid there assimilation into Ukrainian society, this is something the Ukrainians and any Country At War, would not believe, so POW is the only way to deal with any RF troops, they could never be trusted as they could easily become Infiltrators actively helping RF forces in there Bombing of locations etc...

We must all remember, it is not only Projectile weapons used in this or any other war. Information, Fear of something that seems like Brutality to us (Remember our troops were horrified by Japanese Using Beheading as a form of execution during WW2, but too a Japanese soldier this way of dying can save face and return honour) and many other things are legitimate weapons. You do not even need to carry out something that men fear to achieve a goal, you just have to convince them of it, and Pro and Negative Propaganda can move this forward or backwards depending which side you are on.

War is Brutal on all who take part, i have seen far too much in 5 Combat Tours to last me a lifetime, i can never forget what i have seen, what i have needed to do, things i have seen other Brutal men do,  but i made those choices for many reasons and i live with those choices everyday. I tell myself, the things i needed to do saved many lives and was justified, but maybe that is just another form of Mental Pro Propaganda ensuring the last life i take, is not my own.

Innocence is the first Casualty of War, and innocents will always suffer more than anything or anyone in any Warzone.

Slava Ukraini .

"I am not saying this does not happen in war, it does, every Combat Tour i have served has deserters, but will and are those deserters trusted to allow any kind of behaviour you mentioned, i am sorry but that answer is No. They are locked up as Prisoners of War as the Ukrainian people and Armed Forces would not trust them as just before there capture or desertion, they were actively helping to try and destroy Ukraine."

Yeah, a few of those Russians interviewed were under Ukrainian arrest, but as they said, that was far preferable to returning home to Russia.  As for when the war is "hopefully" over, they are going to remain in Ukraine to help rebuild.

The thing is, most of the Russian troops either captured or deserted were conscripts, and they didn't believe they should have been there, not only because most were either untrained or poorly trained, but because the did not agree with the war or the destruction of Ukraine.

Anyhow, let's hope that it is over soon and Ukraine can get back to life in peace.

Just to clarify...it's truth that is the first casualty of war....

Putin's Elite Troops were deployed first, Paratroopers were supposed to take the airport in Kyiv and overthrow the government in the first few days, the Ukrainian army stopped that from happening , so the first troops to die or be captured were not conscripts. That came later. Yes you are correct about the numbers being conscripts, a lot of the men used in the invasion are conscripts, Putin got a huge shock hearing his elite had failed and been killed or taken POW, now he is reluctant to commit his best, not a good strategy in any war, something he is now realising to be wrong.

Conscripts do not make for good soldiers depending on were and when, never have, never will. That is not to say all conscripts are badly trained and motivated, Millions of men were conscripted during WW2 and many made excellent Soldiers, doing very good jobs.

A Soldier does not decide if they agree with a war, orders are orders, and unless you have serious backup and with that backup you feel those orders are actually Illegal, only then should you act against those illegal orders, but you take the chance of serious repercussions, i would not be surprised if commanders have shot Conscripts as a form of example to others.

I really hope you are right Starkers about the war ending soon, Ukrainian Forces are doing well even though they are burning through there ammo and equipment very quickly, if the west can keep them supplied and keep them as a Viable defensive unit, they at least have a chance, but with Europe's Gas usage along the Russian Pipeline actually going up during the war not down, many Billions of Rubles are still funding Putin's war machine, but i too like you hope it ends quickly.

Slava Ukraini .

"Putin's Elite Troops were deployed first, Paratroopers were supposed to take the airport in Kyiv and overthrow the government in the first few days, the Ukrainian army stopped that from happening , so the first troops to die or be captured were not conscripts. That came later. Yes you are correct about the numbers being conscripts, a lot of the men used in the invasion are conscripts, Putin got a huge shock hearing his elite had failed and been killed or taken POW, now he is reluctant to commit his best, not a good strategy in any war, something he is now realising to be wrong."

It's sad that anybody had to die, elite troops or conscript, Ukrainian or Russian, but like you said, war is war and it's going to happen.  The part that annoys, upsets me most is the number of civilian casualties, the huge number of refugees and people displaced because their homes and cities had been destroyed.

That's why I hope it ends sooner and not later. 

Totally agree with you Starkers, all life is a precious thing, you may think that point of view is crackers coming from a person like me who has put himself into War Zones as a Military Contractor, but because of the things i have seen and needed to do in those places, it has just re enforced my opinion, i really am Pro Life.

Civilian casualties is also a terrible thing, my whole world changed one day in Africa when a none combatant little girl (i say none combatant as children are often used as soldiers in Africa) was left for me and my team as punishment by a extremely Brutal War Lord for hitting a Platoon of his men we found Brutalising woman and children in the village some days before.

Poland is doing a fantastic job of caring for the people who are displaced by this war. To there credit , not one single Refugee camp has been set up, this is not to say other bordering countries are not doing there part as they are, but Poland has around 85%.

Now Putin is saying they are going to concentrate on the Donbas Region, something he has wanted for so long so he can join up Crimea basically splitting the east of Ukraine.

I want it to end sooner, just like you, but my experience of war zones tells me even if Putin does control The Donbas region, the artillery, Rockets and Cruise missile attacks on other areas of Ukraine will continue, Mariupol will never surrender, i have Friends in the Georgian International Legion who are seeing this up close and personal, RF forces will have to completely Destroy Mariupol, something they are trying to actively do, The Bravery of it's Defenders and citizens has even brought a tear or two to this old war horses eye(I am Human and Bleed Red just like anyone else).

Never hoped a strangers opinion comes into effect as much as i do yours, and would happily be wrong but Siege tactics are already in place, this tactic of Siege warfare is never quick, my eyes have witnessed Sarajevo first hand and that took years.

I Live in hope you are right starkers.

Slava Ukraini .

Jafo

reply 93

Just to clarify...it's truth that is the first casualty of war....

Jafo,

I was not trying to use a well known phrase in my comments, after serving 5 Combat Tours in some pretty brutal places, i have seen innocents suffer the most and they always are the first, they were my words and i stand by them after being there.

Ask any Veteran who has witnessed War first hand, they will tell you the same.

Innocence is the first Casualty of War, and innocents will always suffer more than anything or anyone in any Warzone.

My Words Jafo, and very true, every one of them.

Slava Ukraini .

I just read on one of our local news websites that Russia is slowly pulling back from the Ukraine capital, Kyiv, and other regions in the North.  The Russians are saying that the 1st phase of the war is over and now they are concentration on Donbas.... which was the primary concern at the beginning of the war.  If that was truly the case, why were so many Ukranian cities beseiged and bombed into oblivion.

To be honest, I find Russian responses to questions from the West to be suspect and laced with part truth and complete untruths.  For instance, the 1st phase of the war is over so troops are 'so-say' pulling back to concentrate on Donbas.  For mine the actual truth is that they were bogged down by stiff Ukrainian resistance and logistical issues.

Still, the desired result is for a Russian cease fire and total withdrawal... to pay Ukraine war reparations to help rebuild what they've destroyed.  I don't know that final part will ever happen, but the, the international courts may deem they do so.

I think it was Reagan who said Verify then Agree and maybe he got it from Gorbachev.

I too am seeing the same things in the news feeds. Ukraine , it's President and the people will have to have a referendum if any territory is given to the RF. I am also getting some first hand news from mates on the ground serving as Foreign Fighters through secure means i will not go into.

Putin now needs an outro that saves face for him and his control over the RF. We have all seen how badly this whole thing has gone for Putin, so he after realising this, is of coarse saying he will pull back troops and concentrate on the Donbas Region, this is what he wanted all along to join up territory with Crimea.

Putin and his Army always resort to absolute Destruction, they dare not get bogged even further down by going into the cities, it would be a Bloodbath as the Ukrainian people will fight for every street, every house and the loss of life would be horrific.

The Russian Federation is starting to suffer due to sanctions, none of this occurred on the same scale during the previous Land grabs and was a huge shock to Putin.

Understanding War, i am afraid Putin's Army will be re supplying and digging in, i hope they pull back but will only believe this stalling tactic when i actually see it.

My Government is now shipping in NLAW and Javelin anti-tank missiles, and Starstreak anti-air missiles, the later is longer range and will hopefully allow the Ukrainian Fighters to hit the RF hard and give some protection from the Bombing.

If all members remember my earlier comments about Advisers being sent to train Ukraine in there use, this is standard practice, and as the Tech (Lethal Aid) becomes more complicated, so does the learning curve, our troops get six months training, but we are trying to condense this to get that tech onto the field sooner. Putin said , no NATO troop countries boots in Ukraine, so the Ukrainian Fighters are crossing the border to Poland were we are waiting with both the Tech and the know how in it's use.

I am sorry starkers as i can not see a time when RF forces will leave Ukraine, they can not lose face like that, especially now after they have lost so many men and high ranking Generals, they actually think Crimea and Donbas is there's to control.

We must remember most Russians are out of the loop and are fed Pro RF crap, some will know the bigger picture but with the threat of Jail will mostly stay quite. War Crimes are a different thing altogether, The UN has already put together a unit of top people to start the investigation. RF troops are Raping at will, this is a Command issue, either there commanders are allowing it or turning a Blind Eye. No man i have ever served with(even as a PMC) would Dare to even try this as i was a strong commander who would Court Marshall them on the spot, they would not be one of us if they tried this and would be treated as a criminal and would never work again as a PMC anywhere.

It will take time, but war crimes will be followed up, people will pay and i am afraid more crimes will be committed before the end.

Putin has no trust left in the western world, several times he has openly lied on record, even the UN security Council has said his explanation of events is "Complete Nonsense"

Europe and to  some extent the western world will be forever changed by this Invasion, RF can never be trusted to keep there word in International affairs and rightly so. The everyday Russian citizens who played no part in this war will also suffer greatly, probably going backwards to cold war ques for food and goods as more western brands pull out and the sanctions become tighter and tighter. The mighty Russian Military have proved to be more mighty mouse than anything else, but as they have over 6 thousand Nuclear weapons , with over 1500 actually deployed and ready to go, we have to step carefully . A Megalomaniac Liar who has gone Rogue with even half those weapon systems and with his back against the wall, is a very dangerous man.

Slava Ukraini .

My hopes for an earlier cease fire and withdrawal have become quite pessimistic and folorn.  The so-called withdrawal from Kyiv is a ploy and will not fully occur.  The US and UK are saying that they're observing small troop movements but it more appears to be a regrouping of troops and equipment to mount ground attacks after the RF airforce has bombed the shit out of Kyiv and broken the spirits of those who remain.

So sad, all because of a lunatic dictator's lust for more wealth and power.  I had hoped I'd never see another war after Iraq, but here it is in all it's ugliness and brutality.

Sorry starkers, i did not know you served in Iraq, you have my utmost respect, i now understand your words more. I too have seen way too much war, Yugoslavia in the 90s was my last Combat Tour, One of Two in that place, i too hoped not to see war of this kind in Europe again.

Putin is a confirmed Liar, RF forces are just re supplying and digging in, but it is Ukraine right now who have the best success in the field, this is massively Important right now and for future talks about peace. As long as we continue to send foreign Fighters and equipment, they have a fighting chance. This can not last indefinitely as RF has the time and money to wait this out, Bombing from afar, Brutalising the towns and Cities citizens they have took over with Rape, Theft and Starvation.

Remember to Hold The Line starkers, the Ukrainian people in those places are Smashed and Broken, but not Finished by far yet mate. I love the way the Ukrainian Army are leaving Pro Propaganda Leaflets and painting on Road Signs "Welcome To Hell, Leave Now Or We Bury You Here" and the leaflets that say, "We Fight You With One Hand Behind Our Back And Are Hurting You, Wait To See How We Fight You With Two Hands"  This kind of thing scares the shit out of conscripts. Professionals like us are trained to ignore this kind of stuff and take it with a pinch of salt.

Today my Government has Sanctioned Colonel-General Mikhail Mizintsev or the Butcher of Mariupol for the Theatre Attack on woman and kids, this is the first step, naming him , the next will be putting together Evidence to charge him with War Crimes. Every Soldier in a position of Command (and lower ranks) all understand, you do not have to follow an Illegal Order to Bomb Civilians, but as his boss is a Dictator, RF Commanders will follow his orders, in time they will pay the price and hopefully Die in a Prison just like High Ranking Animals in Yugoslavia.

Slava Ukraini .

I think it is finally safe to call it...

For the battle of Kyiv Putin has lost! All of Europe is more safe because of it.

Hard battles may still be ahead, but Ukraine should be proud.

Hi PhoenixRising1.

We are also now seeing what the RF forces have left in there wake, Civilians actively hunted down and shot dead in the streets, Uncountable reports of woman Brutalised, mines laid everywhere the RF troops are leaving.

I hope you are right but nagging doubts are still running amok in my head, they will flood the Donbas region with ground troops so Putin has something positive to tell his people to justify things, then i think he will re group, re think and again threaten other Cities in Ukraine. The hope of internal strife between Putin's government may have been alleviated by this recent move to concentrate on Donbas only area, but we can still live in hope the sanctions will grind down Putin and his economy.

Kyiv fighters and all the others cities defenders are brave beyond belief, they have proved to be a huge thorn in the Russians side and will again. I am very proud of every single man, woman in Ukraine, they have showed the western world just how to fight to the last man, being effective with very little to nothing.

I feel this is only the end of the beginning.

Slava Ukraini .

The aftermath is horrible. It could be easy to mistake the RF as a terrorist organization at this point 

My best analogy of where we are at in this war could be a scenario we have all experienced when playing the Parker bros. game Risk.

Basically, it is like Putin lined up 3 cannons on the border to take a over a contenent who's best held territory only had 1 cavalry unit, it should have been a sure fire victory... Have you ever attacked a territory in Risk with 3 cannons and ended up on a losing streak against the defense and suddenly been down to only 1 cannon against a still standing cavalry unit? This is basically what just happened. So now Putin is in a situation where he still wants something so he is going to try his luck against an easier target before he ends his turn. His losses are just too severe to attack the calvary held territory again.

This isnt to discredit the hard battle ahead in the donbas region. Ukraine still stands to lose some territory if they do not win the next battle.

Sorry Phoenix.

I am an Ex Soldier And Private Military Contractor, i do not play games, video /board. I can only comment on what a war zone is like and how things are done , good and Horrific, so i have absolutely no idea about the game you mention. Soldiers or at least the people i have worked with, do not like to play War games, watch war films or TV shows about War(with only a few exceptions), simple because a lot of us has seen how real war can be and stories on film and games just do not compare.

For Soldiers in war zones, it is crucial to understand who you are fighting and to some extent why the people who you are fighting are fighting you. The ground chosen to fight in. I have experience of Fighting Regular Well trained and equipped soldiers, i have fought Rebels, Private well equipped PMCs and guerrillas although well equipped, but soldiers in name only.

A Soldiers worth and effectiveness can be measured in this way. Conscripts are poorly trained and motivated, lacking in Basic Military Know How, who we now know are Killing at will, actively seeking out new targets to Rape, Mutilate and Kill. The commanders of such men are No better allowing or turning a blind eye to such things. Well Trained/ motivated Professional Soldiers and there leadership can be worth more than there numbers.

The Ukrainian people have proved there worth against Putin's Animals, They are fighting to protect there families, there Homes and there cities and country as a whole, extremely well motivated, better equipped by the day, Led by Commanders who favour Hit And Melt away, Repeat, inflicting untold damage on a Larger Army, who by the way are stupid enough to allow troops to Digg in to Irradiated Soil then scratch there heads when men start to become sick. Professional Soldiers and the chain of command would never have done this.

This is why a much smaller force who are extremely motivated as they have no other choice, it is there land and homes, can hold off a much bigger force of men, using what they have, massive amounts of improvisation, and a belief, Failure is not any kind of option.

This is the only analogy as an Ex Professional Soldier and PMC i can make, based on 5 Combat Tours in Two Countries were Genocide was the norm.

Please do not think Putin and his wish to control all of Ukraine has now ended, those Animals moving back from Kyiv and other cities previously, will be re arming, re supplying, re grouping, ready for the next stage. Donbas and connecting up that side of Ukraine will just allow the RF forces to have better supply chains right into Russia almost unbroken, but remember the Georgian International Legion are in that area right now and have been for years, there numbers swelled by Foreign Fighters bringing modern know how and skillsets to the Military there, some of my friends included.

So what's next.

If Putin can manage to link up all his forces in the Donbas region, Odessa will then be bombed into oblivion like Mariupol, after Odessa Putin will control the whole east side of the country, if that does happen and i hope it can be either negotiated or some other truce can occur before that Donbas will always be a divided area with GIL forces hitting and melting away, but never Russian, you watch Putin's Balls grow, after Donbas Putin will need a Buffer zone further into western Ukraine beyond the boundaries of Donbas as a (Not My Words) Security measure for The Russian Federation Safety and to ensure peace.

Slava Ukraini .