Someplace to stash my stuff
cheats on Australian taxes
Published on March 5, 2014 By starkers In Personal Computing

Take a look here - http://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/9bn-apple-profit-moved-offshore-214020163.html - to see just how rotten Apple really is... hides billions to avoid taxes...

 BASTARDS


Comments (Page 5)
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on Mar 09, 2014


Thanks for that, Brad.  Is there any real 'value' in those unrealized gains, then, since it's all coming from printed/devalued dollars?  Or is it just in the difference between the interest rate and inflation?

Absent QE, the relationship between corporate taxes and prices should still apply.  But then, we're not absent QE.

Sure because those unrealized gains are tied to stocks and the value of those stocks are not tied to the dollar per se.  The less the dollar is worth, the more the stocks are worth in dollars.

QE changes everything.  We are explicitly lowering the value of the dollars in order to keep interest rates low.  A liberal Democrat could make a principled argument on why this is a good policy for society overall (i.e. allows for massive deficit spending which can be used to provide more social welfare programs) but the evil side effect is that it is a gift to the 1%ers.

on Mar 09, 2014

Frogboy
The way it works is

Thank you for the explanation, Brad, it was rather enlightening indeed.  However, it has little to do with what Apple is doing here in Australia, in that QE is not applicable here, so it avoids taxes by hiding revenue, income, profit, whatever you want to call it, in an offshore account outside the government's jurisdiction.  Once there it is nigh impossible for the ATO [Australian Tax Office] to claw it back because Apple continues to put up smoke screens and throwing lawyers at it to perpetually complicate the issue, thus buying Apple time.

Frankly, I'd like to see the Australian government kick Apple's arse out of the country - and the problem goes away - but that isn't going to happen because it places an unfair restriction on consumers/Apple customers.  The alternative would be for government to tighten the applicable tax laws to prevent the practice, but the problem there is that they're often too busy bickering to actually achieve such a thing, particularly when some MP's have vested corporate interests that would also be affected.

on Mar 09, 2014

The solution [for Oz, re Apple] would be for us to have some piddly little local Computer/OS manufacturer petition our Govt. [like Harley Davidson did against imported bikes] and impose a protectionist levy specific to Apple on imports...that way taxing them BEFORE sales.

...and get them coming...as we don't seem to be able to get them going.....

 

on Mar 09, 2014

Let's see, the US federal government under both parties has been infested with ex-financial industry people (Goldman-Sachs in particular is very well represented).  Should we be surprised that US policy not only facilitates but encourages large corporations avoiding taxes?

Here's a fun story: I'm a Canadian citizen who currently lives in the US and pays US taxes, as is my oldest brother.  Over Christmas my parents had severe health issues.  Despite the fact that my brother had power of attourney for my father, my father's Canadian financial adviser could not even speak with either of us, as we were US taxpayers.  The US government has bullied foreign financial institutions into not even speaking with US taxpayers.

So yeah, US government policy is still allowing/encouraging corporations to shuffle their money around to avoid taxes, but average schmucks like us are treated as though we're trying to do something illegal.  Sounds fair.

 

on Mar 09, 2014


The solution [for Oz, re Apple] would be for us to have some piddly little local Computer/OS manufacturer petition our Govt. [like Harley Davidson did against imported bikes] and impose a protectionist levy specific to Apple on imports...that way taxing them BEFORE sales.

...and get them coming...as we don't seem to be able to get them going.....

 

That would be great if we had politicians who had any balls to implement it... but sadly, we don't.  And it would likely never happen under an Abbott, Lib government, given how many of them have corporate ties/investments to protect.

In fact, we should be able to stop them going [pissing off with all the cash] but again, the pollies simply don't have the nuts to do what's right, not when they can make up the shortfall from ordinary bloke, with far less trouble and complication.

on Mar 09, 2014

starkers


Quoting Frogboy, reply 58The way it works is

Thank you for the explanation, Brad, it was rather enlightening indeed.  However, it has little to do with what Apple is doing here in Australia, in that QE is not applicable here, so it avoids taxes by hiding revenue, income, profit, whatever you want to call it, in an offshore account outside the government's jurisdiction.  Once there it is nigh impossible for the ATO [Australian Tax Office] to claw it back because Apple continues to put up smoke screens and throwing lawyers at it to perpetually complicate the issue, thus buying Apple time.

Frankly, I'd like to see the Australian government kick Apple's arse out of the country - and the problem goes away - but that isn't going to happen because it places an unfair restriction on consumers/Apple customers.  The alternative would be for government to tighten the applicable tax laws to prevent the practice, but the problem there is that they're often too busy bickering to actually achieve such a thing, particularly when some MP's have vested corporate interests that would also be affected.

Sure it's related.

Again: Apple (and Google and countless other American based companies) do this because they can keep their profits in off-shore accounts which they can then use as *collateral* to run their operations via credit lines that only have a 1.5% (well probably less than that, 1.5% is what *I* can get, they can probably get libor rates).

Being able to keep profits from being taxed is only half the equation. It's just well publicized because it makes companies look "greedy".  That tactic wouldn't be of any value if they couldn't somehow make use of the capital those profits represent and that's where EQ comes in.

A gazllion dollars in a Bermuda account plus $1.00 will buy you a cheap cup of coffee in Cupertino. As soon as Apple/Google/whoever wants to actually make use of that money they have to bring it into the territory they want to use it.  And that means either bringing in your profits directly (which is taxed) OR borrowing it somewhere at super low interest rates and then bringing THAT money into the territory where it isn't taxed.

 

on Mar 09, 2014


The solution [for Oz, re Apple] would be for us to have some piddly little local Computer/OS manufacturer petition our Govt. [like Harley Davidson did against imported bikes] and impose a protectionist levy specific to Apple on imports...that way taxing them BEFORE sales.

...and get them coming...as we don't seem to be able to get them going.....

 

You wouldn't be able to do that. You'd lose in the WTO.  Plus, remember, it's not just Apple. Google basically invented this technique. Everyone else are Padawans.  Nearly every IP-intensive public company does this.  There is no "easy" solution. 

Let me be clear how common this technique is: Our accountants, which are a big 9 accounting firm, strongly urged us to do this.  When this technique is so entrenched that even piddly companies like Stardock are encouraged to do it, it's not some niche thing. It's "the way" IP companies are run.  I would bet that nearly every publicly (or nearly every one) game and software company does this.

It only requires 3 things to work:

1. A country that has widespread trade treaties (like Ireland) that has a seperate and low tax on *royalties*

2. A country that has widespread trade treaties (like Bermuda) that has no income tax.

3. A country that has widespread trade treaties (like the USA) that has very low interest rates.

If any of those 3 items goes away, this racket goes away.  

But before you yell at Apple, look into how EA, Activision, Microsoft, Google, Oracle, or GE do their accounting.  There are so many countries, companies and rich/connected people who profit off this that it's really hard to make go away.  The rich get richer.  The poor get welfare programs and the middle class get shitty roads and a kick in the ass.

 

on Mar 09, 2014

starkers
So yeah, US government policy is still allowing/encouraging corporations to shuffle their money around to avoid taxes,

And this is so because too many average schmucks give their blessing and contribute to the mentality by saying it's okay for corporations to cheat... cos if corporations cheat it means that it's okay for them too. 

When the average schmuck stops contributing and starts complaining bitterly about this loathsome practice enmasse to their reps, only then will something be done to change things.  With millions of signatures on petitions against the practice, the government would find it hard to ignore, especially if everybody signing the petition made it clear that they would boycott the next election... meaning that EVERYBODY refused to vote at all. 

Now that would create a chaos both parties would prefer to avoid at all costs... but of course there would be the wowsers and those quite happy with the system as is, meaning it will never happen and the gap between the wealthy and the poor will continue to ever widen.

on Mar 09, 2014

I'M curious why you blame corporations while letting the governments off the hook.

on Mar 10, 2014

Frogboy
It only requires 3 things to work:
1. A country that has widespread trade treaties (like Ireland) that has a seperate and low tax on *royalties*
2. A country that has widespread trade treaties (like Bermuda) that has no income tax.
3. A country that has widespread trade treaties (like the USA) that has very low interest rates.

The globalization of economies...multi-nationals et al is what 'should' be forcing Govts to create a level playing field where there IS NO facility for tax dodging.... just as the same SHOULD apply for extraditions.  It should NOT be possible for some arse to bugger off to Majorca [or where ever] and avoid corruption/murder/rape/pedaphile/whatever charges.

We're all so happy-feet about the big melting pot that we need to also strike a balance with Law and legislation too...

on Mar 10, 2014

Frogboy
curious why you blame corporations while letting the governments off the hook.

Ah, but I'm not. In reply #65 I let the Australian government have it because it is piss weak and gutless with regard to such matters... among others.  I have no doubt other governments are just as weak, pathetic, corrupt - all of the aforementioned - but I am not directly affected by them so do not feel qualified to criticise them in the same way.  However, the blame does not end with government and the corporations.

I also blame the people who think and say it's okay to cheat on taxes, because the attitude is soon espoused by the wider community, thus giving corporations and government a defacto mandate to continue being dishonest and deceitful.

on Mar 10, 2014

starkers
oh well, Miss Piggida will do

surely that's an insult too miss piggy, and pigs are cute and nice too eat

on Mar 10, 2014

starkers


I also blame the people who think and say it's okay to cheat on taxes, because the attitude is soon espoused by the wider community, thus giving corporations and government a defacto mandate to continue being dishonest and deceitful.

How are they "cheating" on their taxes? They're following the laws as written.  Are you cheating on your taxes if you claim exemptions? 

If you don't like the law, demand they change it. Don't blame corporations for using what is in the law though. 

on Mar 10, 2014

Frogboy
If you don't like the law, demand they change it. Don't blame corporations for using what is in the law though.

 

The problem is, by the nature of their power/influence it seems law might just be 'corporate-will' these days.  The demands of the 'average joe' on that corporate-will have by comparison much less power/influence.  Without which not much 'change' can be effected.

on Mar 10, 2014

What I have seen is big companies and the government being too chummy. There's a difference between having a business friendly environment and what goes on in China where people are committing suicide. No, Apple or GE aren't breaking the law but let's face it, the environment in The United States has gotten anti middle class. You have people like Rick Santorum saying the term Middle Class is a leftist talking point. The middle class people who I grew up with were certainly not leftists.

You see what I'm talking about is an attitude that is prevalent now. Where I work almost all the production jobs have been outsourced to the Philippines and I make less now than I did 10 years ago. If you complain about it you are told you should be glad you have any kind of job at all.

The true definition of a fascist state is a marriage of the state and business where neither can be questioned. It is a class system that is against liberal ideas and gives companies the freedom to do pretty much whatever they want. Pollution, outsourcing the jobs, spending millions on lobbying to get your way in the capital all these things are now possible and are being done. Elections are now bought. The laws are in favor of business. The laws are supposed to be to defend the people. To look after the interests of the people. Then you have politicians saying corporations are people my friend. This is how it's become where the people elect law makers to represent them but the law makers end up representing and making laws that screw the people and benefit rich companies.

What good is it for someone to get in a huge deal of debt to get a college degree then end up working delivering pizzas or making burgers? They are caught in a spiral of debt for their whole lives and when some want to raise the minimum wage they are told it's bad for business.

There's a huge difference in making some money for your shareholders and pure GREED.

I say the United States is a Fascist state now and it makes no difference if the government is run by Republicans or Democrats. As long as the government is married to big business and forsakes the people this is how it will be. 

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